Story Comments

Dear SanfranJim : not only did you sink so low as to call Mr. Hoenig a liar but also you say 'Mr. Hoenig doesn't know the first thing about economics'. I would like to ask you 'why' . Why do you attack Mr. Hoenig on a personal level am I to understand you are not professional enough or is it you are not enlightened enough. Unfortunately Mr. Hoenig does not have the time to adequately retort your fact-less, naive and poorly written comment. Sir I would ask you to please be more open-minded, for your own sake. Lastly I will say , sometimes you have to agree to disagree ; because I cannot see you being truly informed on how the real world works any time in the near future . Sincerely yours, capitalist piglet

P.S. how much is your income?

Vernhuffer: The real lie is the myth that you have not benefited from supply-side economics. If you have a 401-k or other qualified plan or IRA then you are part of the investing class and have been enriched by incentives to efficiently allocate capital.

Unfortunately Mr. Hoenig doesn't know the first thing about economics, or more likely, he is simply lying to us, because he really should know better. The best way to stimulate the economy in the short run is to give money to the people most likely to spend it: in this case lower income tax payers.

In spite of all the 'class war' rhetoric, this is not really taking from the rich and giving to the poor, it is taking from our children and giving to ourselves. There is a good column to be written there complaining about how the deficit spending of our current Administration has bankrupted our future.

Unfortunately, Mr. Hoenig is not intellectually honest or courageous enough to write that one. The current policies have enriched him and his buddies and that is all that he cares about, not the long term health of the nation.

And I am one of those whose income is too high to get a tax rebate check, so don't even start to go there with me.

I totally agree with rd24dec! It is all about 'supply and demand'! You can supply all you want, but, if the consumer don't have the funds to purchase (no job, too much in the way of tax, gasoline and crude prices beyond belief, etc) then demand, or lack of, will regulate the economy!

The consumer will need long term relief, not just a few bucks in the kitty now as a consolation prize provided by those who seek public office.

To russeller, Mr. Hoenig will most certainly not be getting a government rebate check. By the way, what have you done to deserve $1200 of somebody else's money? Just curious.

Someday Jonathan will grow up to realize life is not about collecting toys and taking whatever we can as individuals. We're in this life together like it or not. Greed destroys people and economies. Adelphia, Enron, Countrywide, DeLay, to name just a few.

Once again Jonathan you got it right. One unfailing barometer of the depth of your correctness is the amount of whining from class warfare-redistirbutive-socialists that follow comments that at any other time in this country's history would have not only not been non-controversial, but would have been accepted as givens!

The fact that liberals and big governmentistas (which are one and the same) desire to keep Americans penniless and beholden is the fervent desire that we will go out and spend it, rather than horrors of horrors, save, invest, or pay down debt. Keep up the good fight Jonathan.

Howie, the rebates should go to the already wealthy. More accurately they should be returned to the already wealthy. It is there money. They are the ones that paid the 'bate' to be re-bated! Why should my money (tax dollars)be taken from me, without choice, and given to someone that didn't EARN it? These rebate exclude the earners who paid the tax in the first place. If it is going to be given back to the American people then it should be given to ALL who EARNED it.

To those who are criticizing Jonathan and others in the financial sector as not being producers:

You have a narrow view of what a producer is. A producer includes people who produce physical products, but is not limited to those people. Where do those companies get the capital to produce new products? They get it from investors.

Investors produce wealth for themselves by enabling others to produce products. You can't open a new plant, develop a new product, or hire more employees without capital. Why do companies issue stock? They do it to raise fresh capital. Why do they raise fresh capital? So that they can produce more.

Even traders who rapidly enter and exit trades provide a valuable service to the economy by providing liquidity to the market.

Without investment producers like Jonathan, new jobs don't exist, new drugs aren't developed, and retirement funds are unfunded.

Want an economic stimulus? Cut the capital gains tax.

I'll follow your earlier advice and put mine in foreign currency. Most of the article was quite good, except for the suggestions that the rebates should go to the already wealthy.

'Wealth isn't created by those who consume'. Oh really? You can produce all you want but if there aren't any buyers where does the wealth come from? I don't think much of this stimulus bill or your logic and this crap article.

Why is it that we gauge our economy on consumption? If Americans plan to spend the rebate on bills, then will they learn future discipline in how now to get into debt again. Or, will they learn from the government that debt is OK as long as it stimulates the economy. When will the machine of American consumption as a way of life turn to saving for our future. We are an empire approaching collapse. Let us learn to exercise discipline ourselves. Generation X, a generation I represent, wants more quicker and complains that our parents never taught us this. We can still learn on our own and pass this to the next generation. I challenge America to learn financial disciplines and to exercise delayed gratification.

I appreciate gifts as much as the next guy, so lets just deem this another hand-out from our Nanny Government. We've already wasted this much on a town that's below sea level so why stop there? Eventually, when the dollar is worth one peso somebody will ask, 'How did we get here?'

This rebate is not free. It takes away from the funds to help with governmental programs and from our wars abroad.
I'll take it and spend it though. The national debt is so high now that a few less billion should not be noticeable.
Regarding this article in general, it is completely garbage! What do we produce? We are all consumers now, so the rebate is all that will get the economy going again. Call it redistributing our government benefits to those most struggling on a one shot payment.

I suggest you read more about this author before you accuse him of being partisan or neoconservative. What you will find is a brilliant promoter of FREE MARKETS & WEALTH CREATION-Concepts you cannot possibly both comprehend AND support the Stimulus Package. They are inconsistent. The upper class (this includes the super wealthy) pays the majority of the taxes. NONE of the lower class pays taxes, yet they will receive a Rebate check. Rebate, according to Webster, is 'a return of a part of a payment.' If you do not make a payment, how can you get a return of a part of a payment? This is not American, but is Socialism at its best. Why not rebate $6000? What?s the difference? I recall thinking that when organized Communism seemed to disappear, all of you people had to go somewhere. I suspect that with the government looking more and more familiar to you, you have decided to surface. Although I was beginning to worry, somehow I knew you Commies were always there. Capitalistpig RULES!

First I would like to say I am not in favor of this stimulus packade. Now this article is just another republican response. The republicans want everything they earn. I am a democrat at lower end of middle class, but I always tried to save when I was working,retired now and probably considerd very poor by this writer. I still try to help those that are worse off than myself. I have compassion for the poor, old, vets etc. One other thing, what good does it do the rich to produce all the things you are talking about if no one can purchase?

Another member of the well-to-do minority complaining about the progressive tax system. Give it up, it's not gonna change.

Not surprising that a hedge fund manager takes such a self-serving stance. The class warfare screed, however, is insultingly dishonest. By what definition could the receipt of $1,200 be considered wealth? Further, if the author's fund isn't making direct investments in entities that then use the capital to create jobs, produce products or access new markets, then he doesn't deserve to consider himself a 'producer' in the first place. If some bucks come out of the author's pocket to pay for this, consider it a toll for enjoying lower tax rates on capital gains and dividends in investments that produce no jobs beyond those of money-changers while contributing to ever-ballooning fiscal deficits.

There are plenty of good reasons not to like the stimulus package. The author's arguments, however, do not contribute to constructive debate.

This is just another wealth redistribution scheme. Why not do something fair like a payroll tax break - no payroll tax on the first 20-30k earned. Everyone benefits. Instead they screw the upper middle class... again. If you thing people making 75-150k are 'wealthy' and getting all kinds of special tax breaks, think again. The lower and upper ends are the ones with all the breaks and credits and the ones in the middle get screwed. I am all for higher taxes above 300k-1M and if you ask Warren Buffet he agrees.

Shame on the Republicans and President Bush. People who have lived way beyond their means or are not even U.S. citizens are now going to get handouts from those people who worked hard and saved. Calling it a rebate is a complete joke. If you didnt pay in ,you cant get anything back, period.Im surprised to see some of the comments on this article. Not surprised there are bleeding hearts out there just surprised they are stupid enough to open their mouths and whine while we feed them.
mgr

This article on the stimulus package implies that the working middle class (not just lazy poor Americans) don't deserve the refund because it's simply a redistribution of the wealth. Point being that this article is so partisan that it's blatent and kind of gross. The author also omitted facts about the crazy tax breaks these super wealthy individuals receive already...some never paying a dime due to the loopholes in the system! Do you really think that an extra $300-$600 will make a big difference to you? If it means you can make your car or house payment this month, then WOW I agree with you. Somehow I doubt this. If individuals want to reep the rewards and benefits of our free market capitalist system, don't you think it's only fair that those who benefit most should help support their own bread and butter? Try being less partisan and your column might be interesting to read. Otherwise it just sounds like a neoconservative rant about manifest destiny and the 'entitlement' problem.

Wealth disparity has never been greater, job security, health insurance and retirement benefits are slowly deteriorating, yet CEO pay per average worker and Wall Street bonuses are at all time highs and top tax brackets are at all time lows...and you econ 101 students who actually think there is such a thing as a 'free' market are still cryin about a measely stimulus package redistributing wealth! Let them eat cake you say????? Well for all of you 'producers' who wouldn't give a hand to your neighbor...little own some poor family in Iraq...better get yourself a real big dog cause he's the only friend your gonna have!!!

I'd like to inform you that I have just read in the Puerto Rican press that the U.S. Congress has approved the inclusion of Puerto Rico residents in the tax rebate legislation that's about to be signed. Nothing has been said about this in the local press.

Just what does this mean?

Residents of Puerto Rico (who pay NO FEDERAL TAXES) will have the same rights to federal tax rebates as residents of the 50 States.

The local politicians in PR have already calculated that their residents will receive in excess of $1 BILLION DOLLARS from the US Treasury in this windfall.

Since WE in the 50 States paid into the US Treasury the monies that will be 'refunded' to residents of Puerto Rico, this is essentially a new tax on us, and a new welfare program for Puerto Rico.

We must all wake up and boot out the knuckleheads who come up with these programs!

Pete Saunders

At least some of the money could be 'recovered.' In another decade or so, Congress could realize that money for those on Social Security was just 'lent' to them from the SS trust fund. Then Congress could deduct that amount from the trust fund to balance everything out.

'A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world?s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.' -Attributed to ALEXANDER FRASER TYTLER, LORD WOODHOUSELEE. Unverified.
http://www.bartleby.com/73/424.html

I'll cash my rebate check (if I get one). I have some stimulating to do!

I'm not a supporter of the rebates but having said that most of those high wage earners depend on the labor of a lot of low wage earners to make their corporate worlds go round and a lot of the really, really high wage earners were the great brains behind the loan repackaging schemes that are a large part of this meltdown.

http://strictlyanecdotal.com/2008/02/11/there-should-be-blood.aspx

I agree with this article completely and those that say cashing the check is immoral have completely missed the point. The point is that this is stimulus package is nothing more than theft on a grand scale. I work hard for my money but get no help paying for my kids college, no deductions thanks to AMT and continuously have my money used for things I do not approve of by our thieving and immoral politicians. Why don't we simply divide the cost of gov't by the number of citizens and everyone pay an equal share. I'll tell you why, because then people would have to complete their education, work hard and depend on themselves. That of course would never fly in modern day America.

Mr. Wyliefool, you're free to give them your money.

In the 21st Century do you really mean to claim that only those who produce hard goods are producers? Intellectual capital is paid what it is worth based on the law of free supply and demand in the marketplace, not force, which is what you are implying with the coerced redistribution of wealth.

I'm going to take my $1200 and give it to a 2%/20% hedge fund manager. They have 'earned' their multi-million dollar salaries by investing pension fund money in CDOs and other pieces of garbage. Better yet, I'll give it to Angelo Mozilo. That poor guy was guilted into giving back $37.5 million of the money he made by running Countrywide into the toilet. I feel bad for taking money that he 'earned'.

How's this for an idea? Let's get the hell out of Iraq and save a few hundred billion dollars in 2008.

Actually, I think it's a conspiracy designed to sabotage the next administration. There will certainly be another bust--or runaway inflation--in 2009 as a result of this 'stimulus.' The neocons will then blame that on the current administration, thus setting up for the 2012 election, in which they'll attempt to regain control. The Dems (and non-Bushie republicans) are just too stupid or shortsighted to realize what's happening.

And Jonathan. Are you seriously suggesting that in the 21st century the government should allow citizens to die because they're too poor to afford heat, food, or health care? Nice. You know, the feudal system wasn't all that economically sound. And the head of Citibank doesn't actually produce anything.

Jeez. Even Warren Buffet says that the rich ought to pay taxes.

To answer one of the posts, Jonathan would be acting on principle only if he cashed or deposited a hypothetical rebate check, because he's already paid for it many times over in taxes. (He won't get one, he's a high income producer.) Returning it to the hog trough of the Federal Government would be unjust. It is an outrage that those who pay the most in taxes will be paying for this redistribution of income masquerading as a stimulus, a dubious concept. Now, that's an injustice.

A few hundred bucks to seniors and disabled vets to spend on food and medical bills...and your complaining that it's a wealth transfer that doesn't reward producers? You mean producers like the bankers, brokers and wall street legends who got us into this mess in the first place? Don't worry...any money spent from the rebates will just go right back into their hands anyways! And speaking of producers...what exactly is it YOU produce?

Well done Jon, now if only someone would listen.

'The downfall of a civilization occours as soon as its' constituants realize they can vote themselves treasure from the nations coffers.'

I couldn't agree with you more .... and I assume that being a person of conviction... you will not cash YOUR rebate check but promptly send it right back ....