Gloom and Doom? Nah; Just for the U.S.

PETER D. SCHIFF is an extreme bear when it comes to investing in the U.S., and he's made a name for himself selling his point of view with considerable zeal, often on television but also in print. Schiff, 43, has contributed articles to Newsweek International and other publications, and he is the author of the recently published Crash Proof: How to Profit from the Coming Economic Collapse. Our own Alan Abelson cited his musings in a recent column.

However, comparing Schiff's performance with a benchmark is impossible because he does not run a fund; instead, he recommends stocks for clients' brokerage accounts. Schiff, who holds a degree in finance and accounting from the University of California at Berkeley, is president and chief global strategist of Euro Pacific Capital, a brokerage he founded in the mid-1990s that emphasizes international stocks, preferably with dividends.

Not everybody is a fan. Schiff has been criticized for aggressively courting publicity to tout his doomsday message relating to U.S. equities and the domestic economy. But he has been right on several key calls, notably the weakening greenback and his emphasis on international stocks, and he has helped his clients make money. Barron's caught up with him recently.

Barron's: When did you turn bearish on the U.S.?

Schiff: A long time ago I worked as a retail broker at Shearson Lehman Brothers and I was selling tech stocks, and I was generally bullish. I had difficulties with some of the problems in our economy, but I was recommending U.S. stocks. I left Lehman in 1991. In the mid-1990s, when I was working for a small broker-dealer in California and then for my own firm, I started getting concerned about the dollar. So I began getting some clients invested in some foreign stocks — just to get out of the dollar a bit. The dollar had a big drop, and then it started to rally in the late-1990s, in conjunction with the tech bubble. It was all part of foreigners' efforts to try to participate in the Nasdaq's bubble.

What kinds of stocks did you like in those days?

Traditional value stocks with dividend yields. I also liked commodities, so I was buying international oil stocks back when oil was under $20 a barrel. The stocks I recommended weren't doing very well in '98 or '99, especially after the Asian crisis, but they started doing better around 2000. I turned really, really bearish on the U.S. when I saw what the Federal Reserve was doing to prevent a recession in the early part of this decade, notably pumping a lot of liquidity into the system.

You continue to be very bearish on the U.S. But haven't there been other times when there was lots of negative sentiment toward the U.S., only to see another era of prosperity emerge? Such as the late 1980s, when there was concern that Japan would take over the U.S. economy. Look at how that turned out.

Yes, but we haven't been through anything like what we are going through now. The United States has really been living in a fool's paradise, or a phony economy, probably for more than 20 years. But our economy has been growing and getting bigger and bigger. We have been able to convince the world to lend us money and to provide us with goods that we don't produce and that we can't afford to pay for with exports. And it has gotten to the point now where the problem is so big, especially since the real-estate bubble. We've now borrowed so much money from abroad. Our trade deficits are now very big, and our industrial base and our infrastructure have been allowed to decay for so long, that we are now at a point that we can only survive as an economy thanks to the charity of the rest of the world. They have provided us with all the goods that we can no longer produce because we lack the industrial capacity. And they have to lend us the money because we don't have any savings anymore.

What's your take on oil prices?

As oil prices are going up in the U.S., they are not rising nearly as fast in other countries because their currencies are strengthening. Ultimately, when currencies like the renminbi that are pegged to the dollar are allowed to float, I see the Chinese currency rising five-fold against the dollar. That would make oil a lot cheaper in China relative to what it would cost in the U.S.

Speaking of China, how do you see things developing there and its impact on the U.S. economy?

The whole science of economics, as I see it, is how do you satisfy unlimited demand with limited resources? China has more than one billion people. It is not as if Americans are unique in wanting things. It's not as if the Chinese don't want dishwashers. The reason they don't have those possessions is because they don't have the purchasing power. But they do have that power; it's just that their government is taking it away from them and giving it to us. But it is Americans who can't afford these goods, because we can't produce them. So if the renminbi is allowed to rise, then Chinese factory workers will be able to afford the products they are producing instead of shipping them over here. That's going to be a major, major boon for their economy.

So it sounds as if the U.S. will be relegated to second- or third-tier status.

The U.S. is in trouble. We are a post-industrial society, which is the same as a pre-industrial society; our manufacturing base has disintegrated. It's not nonexistent; we still make some things and we are still competitive in some areas. But on the whole, as a nation we are not competitive. We are mainly a nation of a service sector and consumers, and that's going to have to change. Nor do we have the savings that we need to fund the transition.

What could go wrong with your scenario?

Somehow, the U.S. could buy itself some additional time. We could convince the world — Europe and Asia — that they need us, and that while propping up the U.S. economy is going to hurt them with more inflation, letting the U.S. collapse is going to be even worse. Of course, none of that is true. The truth, in my view, is that the cost of propping us up far exceeds the cost of letting the U.S. economy collapse. But I think we are already in a pretty severe recession.